This one's for the authors.

[aruan]

So I'm starting in on bettyp's predictably wonderful secondary character-based newest, and not two sections into it, my brain is hijacked.

Carlos and JC are talking in the loft, and while the characterization of JC is consistently my biggest point of contention with bettyp's writing, her secondary characters (with Trace being the happiest example) are possibly my biggest point of enjoyment. She writes them as many of the rest of the writing community write the boys - with empathy and compassion, obligingly and forgivingly. The antipathy toward the "secondary characters" in their lives shocks me sometimes, especially when some of those same people make them so obviously happy.

Anyhow, Carlos responds to a question of JC's, and I'd link the story if anything specific was relevant but it isn't, and I loved what he said so much, I felt warm and happy and glad for JC, that he had someone like that in his life. Until I realized, wait, that's right, this is only fic.

Oh, I know just how that sounded. Go with me.

I tend to enjoy fic that meshes with my conceptions of the boys. Duh. Does anyone go in tabula rasa? I'd venture with almost utmost certainty that the answer is no. Spending any amount of time in whatever part of any fandom leaves a person colored by a thousand and one things that add up to that person's "know" of the characters.

Let's take a moment to define that operative term "know" as the sum total of all one's personal beliefs, experiences, conceptions, notions, perceptions, etcetera ad nauseam of a person based on the sum total of their foundations, which include any and all but are not limited to fanfiction, others' firsthand accounts, biases, photographs, personal encounters, etc.

I saved a chunk of a post bettyp herself once made in response to some kerfuffle or another that I found interesting:

But I do, some of the time, love them. While I'm writing about them, I do, because I write them in a certain way, a little more thoughtful than they probably are, a little more genuine, a little more confused. I write them trying harder to get through life than I think they really are. Even when I'm feeling the Gritty Realism (tm), I romanticize their problems, their struggles, to give them greater weight and depth than just some fucking rich kid who's all woe is me, my life is so hard. I do that because I don't want to read about their bloated, competitive, soulless, consumptive, defensive little lives. I want, in one sense or another, a romance, a story about one or another kind of love.

And I'm not saying that's totally untrue, or that they're incapable of love or whatever. I'm saying that I write the way I write because it produces a story that I like and not becasue I think it mimics reality exactly... [ETA: full post here]

I don't agree because it's not my method or logic, but I see how that philosophy and approach would make for a good experience for the writer and a more satisfying story for everyone. However, I read fic that is feasible in the way in which I "know" the boys to be, good, bad, and in-between. Fair enough. It doesn't mean I don't read anything that challenges that - by all means, turn my world upside-down, make me see them from forty-seven degrees to the left of the way I'd expect. Make me see something new or another way of looking at something I already "know" about a particular character.

But while I can ignore characterizations I don't like or that don't jibe with the boys the way I "know" them, there's no refuting canon. Of course there is more than one perspective, more than one take on a situation, more than one way to interpret any given action and more than one conclusion to take away from it, but we're not having the there is no reality discussion right now. My point is, I enjoy fic that feels "real", and given my "know" of Carlos, I can't see him (or rather, hear him) saying and doing what he did in that scene.

Now, I harbor no antipathy toward the man. No, really. My bottom line is the boys' happiness, and if Carlos makes JC happy, which (to me) he obviously does, then the rest doesn't matter. It's just that the Carlos I "know" wouldn't say that. And I suspect this will influence my enjoyment of the story, because I so badly want to be able to believe the character Betty is doing such a great job of writing. And it makes me want to not have amassed the "know" I have in regard to Carlos that, to me, refute his ability to be the way Betty wrote him.

This is the danger of Real Person Fic. They're real people, which is great and not so much in the same. We don't just see them in one setting, we don't just hear about them from a set group of people, we don't just know them through carefully scripted shows or movies. We see these boys at charity events and cafes and airports and clubs, not just onstage. We hear about them from fellow fans, critics, groupies, roadies, managers, parents, and reporters, not just the writers who created them or the actors who play them. They do things we don't expect and say things that jar us, stuff that we'd otherwise cry "Out of character!" about and run to the nearest keyboard to find out which new writer to curse for it.

I'd venture that asking whether you'd like to meet one or more of them given the chance to whatever extent, whether it's just seeing them in concert or getting to sit down for afternoon tea, is mostly absurd. Though there are people who would say no, most of us would jump at the chance.

But then, moments like this make me think. I want to believe Betty's Carlos. I like hers better than the sum total of my "know" of the real one. But that isn't strong enough of an override not to interfere with my enjoyment. On the whole, I've been very lucky in my encounters with the boys, as they've been attentive, obliging, and gracious. But it didn't necessarily have to happen that way. A lot of celebrities aren't as accomodating to their fans. And there are people who have had less than satisfying experiences with the boys, too. Would those things influence a writer who incorporates them into his/her fic? I'd say doubtlessly, whether that means anything from changing the characterization to not writing them anymore at all.

Which, finally, brings me to my question: Writers, if you had the chance to meet your characters, as we are fortunate to have the opportunity to do in pop fandom, would you, even if it meant it would change your "know" of that character unfavorably? Or do you see them colored not just by your "know" but also an affection, whatever that may be, that you have for them, that exists despite whatever flaws they may have? Or do you not desire an encounter with them at all precisely because it would mess with your "know" of your character?

It's so late here. Not really, it just feels that way. halimede and her hubby have been wonderful hosts, but tomorrow will see me on a train not to Munich, but Paris, where I will curl up in familiar haunts and take a more low-key approach to globetrotting until my flight home on the 14th.

Comments

[silveryscrape.livejournal.com]

Curious: what was BettyP's Carlos like, and how did that not jibe with the "real" Carlos as you see him?

When you say "would we like to meet our characters" I'm thinking you mean would we like to meet the guys, and not in a scripted "media" kind of way. Do I have that right? If that's your question, then I have to say "sure!" I've written the guys any number of ways. They change from story to story, and actually meeting the inspiration for all those versions would be cool. I'd feel like I could get a whole bunch more versions of them, just by picking up some nuances of them as people that I haven't gotten from clips, soundbites, other fanfic, etc.

So yeah, I guess I am willing to see them as "unperfect," as people. In fact, I love the idea of it, because it's realer. If that's a word. :) I don't need JC to be wonderful like the character in a story to love him. The guy I love, in fact, is a stranger, a mysterious person living out there in the world, and that's part of the fun.

Oh, yes. I'll also mention that writing Justin helped me to like the real him better. However that fits with what you're thinking about. :)

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

I've read exactly a section and a half of Betty's story. The line that struck me was very early on, but I loved it so much and then was brutally sidetracked by the loquascious thought process above. So I've no idea how her Carlos will eventually turn out, but judging from the scene I read, her Carlos is much warmer, more confident but also empathic. And the thing is, I really don't have any real way of knowing whether that isn't what he's like with JC! But it's not how I "know" him, ergo my conflict.

I did mean meeting the guys in a non-media way, yes, because obviously, you can't meet your characters because they don't exist. But not because they're strictly fictional, as most people's characters are, but because they exist only as a product of your "know," so they may as well be characters because none of us have the kind of intimate knowledge we claim of them.

I totally understand your point about nuances, and absolutely that's a big part of the thrill of meeting them, especially if you've written them to see what you got right perhaps or something new you could elaborate on. But they could also turn out to be, while probably not shockingly so, maybe disappointingly different? Not because they're not perfect, because they aren't nearly so - as halimede said, it's not that I'm afraid they'd fall short of some ideal I may have (though I don't refer to my "know" as an ideal because it's not how I want the guys to be but how I see them as they are). It's that "know" that I fear they'd potentially... corrupt? No, that's not what I mean, that's when a group of writers is trying to write one character. Human beings aren't any more or less themselves at any given moment - even when they're acting, it's a tell. Change is fine - it's the potential of the bad encounter that's off-putting. Not for me, but my definition of a "bad" encounter may not be someone else's.

But if mystery is part of the fun, why do you still want to meet him? ;) Devil's advocate, but this question may be more interesting than I thought by the time I spat all that out.

Very interesting about Justin. I feel the same way about my understanding of JC after all my ventures of finished or works-in-progress fics where I try to get into his head, too. But then again, who's to say this new facet of my "know" added any more realism to what it was before?

[silveryscrape.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that, for you, BettyP didn't set Carlos up so that you'd buy the extra nuances of warmth and confidence in his personality. I find that intersection between reader and author to be really interesting.

But the "meeting the characters" idea is fun, too! I'd love to meet the JC and Chris from my story Spill. And god knows I'd love to meet the JCs and Chrises I've read in some of my favorite fanfics.

Why do I still want to meet the mystery man? Okay, you got me... I'm not sure I do want to meet him, but not because I'm worried he'll turn out to be a dick. I have this thing, when I see a great, sexy person my early distant warning says "hottie!" and they immediately disappear from the universe. It's, like, self-protection. I don't want JC to disappear, see? And every time I see him in the world I'm thrilled, but I get that little twinge, like bye, JC...

Naw. Who am I kidding. I'd love to meet him. I think he'll end up even more of a mystery, because I'll have more clues to build on. ;)

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Well, considering how relatively early on he leaves JC, I actually thought she did a fantastic job of making him empathic enough to convey the magnitude of JC's loss in a very little amount of interaction. The only problem I have with her Carlos is that he's not the sum of my "know," but there are so many things in this story that don't mesh with my "know" of the people in them, I know I'll never read it again. I'll finish it now, because I love certain stylistic elements and turns of phrase and genuine insight and cleverness in Betty's writing, but I won't come back to it.

And interestingly, I wouldn't want to meet mine or others' characters and feel like I'm meeting different people. That's my peeve here, is that I'm aware that I'm reading a story and not what is allowable in the context of my "know."

I'm not sure I followed on your third paragraph - do you mean to say you prefer not to meet the real people behind the RPF because you prefer certain characterizations of them?

[halimede.livejournal.com]

This bit:

Writers, if you had the chance to meet your characters, as we are fortunate to have the opportunity to do in pop fandom, would you, even if it meant it would change your "know" of that character unfavorably?

Made me have a semi-intelligent thought. Now let's see if I can articulate it.

For a second there, I was hit by the impossibility of it --not of meeting your (original, non-sparkly characters, as I think you mean there from our earlier conversation) characters and see a side of them that doesn't agree with what I thought they were. (1)
The reason for this, I think, is that fiction, unlike real life, is supposed to make sense. Neil Gaiman recently said on his blog that when he tried to define what a story is, the closest he could get was 'something that keeps the reader turning pages without feeling cheated at the end'. In fiction, it all ties back into itself in some way. The thing that holds it all together isn't necessarily cold hard logic, it can be much more tenuous and nebulous, theme, symbolism, symmetry or something even harder to grasp and define than that, but *story* even an abstract painting is more than random, makes some kind of sense.

RPS operates on that edge of sense and randomness. As a rule, human beings are tempted to write creation stories to explain the world around us and see ourselves reflected in it; the same thing happens (mildly perhaps) in popslash. You see elements that appeal to you, you weave a story out of those elements and around them, and there's a piece of you in it too.

(continued in next comment)

[halimede.livejournal.com]

But there are competing narratives. What you call your 'know' of the character, I would call my default. It's How I See Them, which is just another story I make up in my head, in a way. It's the way I order all the information that bounces around my skull and make it all make some kind of sense, with blank spaces and gaps where I Just Don't Get It or don't know stuff. Some parts are pretty malleable, another tidbit of information comes up and there's an automatic adjustment. Other bits are more set, and it takes me longer to adjust to contrasting information (e.g. Really? I never would have thought that of so-and-so, he just seemed so... I don't know. Hmmm. Well, I guess --and so the sensemaking process & weaving all the little bits into a cohesive 'story' starts once more.).

I don't know why I'm more set about certain things, and less about others. I imagine it goes beyond just *my* values and things, it also has to do with how I process information. Does my brain, when it processes the information, give more weight to body language, or more to the spoken word? Whenever I watch footage with someone else, I'm amazed how everybody notices another little detail. And then those details get explained according to the viewer's own experience (JC turned around, did he turn his back to the crowd, or did he turn toward the musicians behind him?).

But I am aware that I'm very attached to some parts of my default story, and other parts I can manage to stay objective about. I don't know how I would feel if those were challenged by a face-to-face encounter. I always felt that I could suspend my disbelief again by sheer force of will if need be, and that's why I liked diverse characterisations in fanfic.

This is a) not true. In the real world I find it does sometimes shade my feelings about a work if I know something disagreeable about the creator, f'rex. There are some non-fannish, pro, mainstream authors where I couldn't get back into their fic after I'd read their non-fic. I always felt vaguely guilty about that, as if I wasn't being objective enough about the work, but then recently I read someone's explaination of how they felt it was perfectly natural and not bad at all to take that background, like you take all your background knowledge, to the appreciation of a piece. It made quite a lot of sense to me, and I may have to think about it further.

And b) I find that I'm getting pickier as a reader at the moment and I wonder if it's because I'm attached to the way I see the boys that I'm fannish about, or because I'm growing less patient as I get older and I just want to read stuff that works for me right of the bat.

Another question that comes up is why? Why does it matter, why am I (and why is anyone) invested in someone being X or Y at all? I think even the most tolerant, laidback person has been taken aback by finding out something unexpected about a friend, so this investment/expectation thing is wider than just fan/object-of-fannish-devotion/fictionalized-version-of-same.

1) Note: absolutely characters can surprise you while you're writing them. Don't think that's the same thing we're talking about here.

[silveryscrape.livejournal.com]

Hmm. You've led me to consider that my "know" or "default" is actually a kind of meta-sense of the characters that many versions of them come from. Like a big ol' mass of possibilities that I recombine every time I write them. Very interesting, and connects with the idea of characters surprising you when you write them... and real people when you meet them. :)

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you know of the work of Jean Piaget - he's a child psychologist and introduced the concept of schemas, or preconceived notions. It's remarkable what human beings can see or ignore based on what they're conditioned to expect or "know" of a given situation. Her definition of "know" as a default is exactly what he talks about, and it's the existence of any sort of "know" or context for a person/situation that a lot of the time makes us ill-prepared for the real thing, which we expect to conform but so rarely does. Hence my original question of who among us is willing to run that risk by meeting the boys, I just didn't phrase it terribly well.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with your "know"/default definition, but I don't see it as "just another story I made up in my head" because there has to be something you can come back to that you believe in when writing a character, a touchstone, no? It doesn't have to be set in stone, but it has to be as "real" as you can make it, no?

And we absolutely notice different things when we see the same event. But there is no real way for one person to look at the same thing and see it another way the second time around without some suggestion or prodding from someone who saw it differently, and then it's not really his/her interpretation anymore. People who actually know the boys notwithstanding, I'm not any more or right in my "know" than anyone else so far as "reality" is concerned. But I still "know" what I "know" (even if that's entirely in my head and not necessarily the best interpretation of what is, because after all, what's more real than the world as we perceive it?)

But I am aware that I'm very attached to some parts of my default story, and other parts I can manage to stay objective about. I don't know how I would feel if those were challenged by a face-to-face encounter.

Hence my question. *g* I don't know how I would feel if any of my encounters had been less pleasant than they were, and I'm glad for that, but is it a risk everyone, including myself, is willing to keep running just to interact with them at all?

I always felt that I could suspend my disbelief again by sheer force of will if need be, and that's why I liked diverse characterisations in fanfic.

And that's precisely what makes me close a story. Don't get me wrong, I read alternate history stories all the time - stories set in this world but with certain events not having happened or happened differently, i.e. Joey never had Briahna, Lance went to space, etc. I don't want to have to suspend my disbelief - I want to hear the boys speak their lines and feel their actions are justified by their character as I "know" it.

I find that I'm getting pickier as a reader at the moment and I wonder if it's because I'm attached to the way I see the boys that I'm fannish about, or because I'm growing less patient as I get older and I just want to read stuff that works for me right of the bat.

Wanting read something that works for you and being unwilling to accept a particular author's interpretation is very different from deliberately reading a real interview with a certain active bias on your part to your default. And some people do, and that's fine if they want to, but I won't read their fic.

Why does it matter, why am I (and why is anyone) invested in someone being X or Y at all?

Because we want to write plausible stories about them. *g* I need people in my real life not to fly off the handle or do things out of left field for my own sanity, but I'm invested in my "know" because I want the boys to be as realistic as I can write them.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

By meeting your characters, I really meant meeting the inspiration for your characters. My approach to writing dictates that my characters, if they're not my own, are the people they're supposed to be as I "know" them. So In my mind, there was no necessary distinction between character and person - they're one in the same.

Hm. Interesting definitions of story. But mine is a bit more concrete, and while symbolism, symmetry, etc. is good and makes it far richer, a story based on that alone isn't enough for me. I could see that being a creative writing exercise, but not enough to convey a satisfying narrative.

It's inevitable to involve oneself somehow in a story one is writing, and you're right, humans are unpredictable, but there is a somewhat reliable "know" that emerges. However reliable that "know" is depends on a thousand things - your sources, your biases, etc. - but there is something to work with. Just because we're writing real people, doesn't mean we can write anything we want and justify it with the unknowability of humans. At least, not for me, which is what you seem to be suggesting by saying that "RPS operates on that edge of sense and randomness." Which is not to say you're wrong, it's just not how I approach writing RPS, which, yes, limits characterizations I'm willing to accept, but that's fine by me, because I have a (not unmalleable) "know" of the boys, and if I can't recognize them in the stories I read, it may as well be original fiction.

[trixiesfic.livejournal.com]

I think I've decided recently that I really don't want to meet them outside of maybe an autograph situation, but not because of fear of messing with my ability to write them, but because I've seen too many people have unsatisfactory encounters. Not what I would ever call bad encounters, but we all have expectations, whether we admit to them or not.

Aside from that, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I talked a little about that once vis-a-vis the way we want them to be vs. the way they are and how we can never really know the space in between. Personally, I recently had my own little crisis of faith in this sense. I'll freely admit that I didn't open the file of my Trickyfish epic for almost two months since the nosejob. And yes, it's silly and I've gotten over it. But I've spent a hell of a long time on this story trying to figure out who Lance is and how he'd react to certain things and so forth. I had my own personal version of him. The nosejob seriously fucked with that vision.

Real people are damn messy as fictional characters.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Of course we all have expectations, if widely varying degrees of them. For example, I would love to say I've shaken their hands and said something meaningful about their work. Other people are content to watch a performance, while some sneak into their hotel rooms.

But there are so many possible reasons for Lance having gotten the nose job and a thousand more possible motives behind those reasons. Maybe it was pure vanity, maybe it was a surfing accident, maybe it's something that's always bothered him because some stupid kid made some stupid comment in the sixth grade. Maybe I just don't see the nosejob reflecting on his personality as strongly as others, but that again is where the subjectivity of it all becomes the bottom line. Hope it doesn't ultimately Joss your epic though.

Real people are damn messy as fictional characters.

Truer words. Why can't they just be the way I want them to be, darnit? *g* Because then we'd be writing original fiction, and I think, if nothing else, I'll always love fandom too much to pack up my toys for my own sandbox.

[uschickens.livejournal.com]

Oh, Paris. I sigh in envy at your ability to wallow in its fabulousness first-hand. But I digress. Because, see, I've thought about your question a lot. """"".

The way your question is worded - if you had the chance to meet your characters - I read it differently than I think you meant it, and my answer changes depending on how you read that phrase. I would absolutely, totally love to meet the characters I so often read about and have now dabbled in writing about. I don't really have any desire to meet the people I rps all that much. I am more and more convinced of the "space" between the people we see and the private characters we write about. Personal vs. public personas, whatever. For the most part, what interests me about them as characters is on the other side of that space, and I know that as a member of the general public, I ain't ever gonna see on the other side of that space.

Don't get me wrong; I fully enjoy my consumption (if you will) of their public personas. I entirely adore each and every one of my concert experiences with them. But part of what I love so much about seeing the photos or hearing their interviews or watching their concerts is extrapolating what XY and Z done in the public eye means for what I can write/ponder about going on in the private sphere. (Hence my mad adoration for valiumbitch.) I don't particularly see how any closer encounter I could feasibly have with any of them would provide me with any more entertainment than, say, watching lj explode the night of the wax figure unveilings, or standing in the audience (with that all-important personal bubble full intact) watching Chris sing his heart out. So I'm content with the way things are, even if I think a lot about it.

However, given the opportunity to meet The Long Run's Chris and Lance, or any of synecdochic's Lances, or all five of giddygeek's version of the guys, or my own current version of Justin? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

And now this stranger quits babbling in your lj. Faboo post, by the way. Made me think all sorts of thinky thoughts.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Paris was an interesting but ultimately wonderful experience. A lot of my angst having to do with it simply stemmed from my not being able to live the life I normally do (journaling, keeping up with LJ and e-mail correspondence) in addition to whatever my real life consists of (depending on whether I'm at university or back home). If you're interested in my trip or just Paris, I'll be posting my trip journal and pictures in another LJ, avez_vous, as soon as possible, depending on the extent of my delirium of singleminded happiness following Challenge this weekend.

The way your question is worded - if you had the chance to meet your characters - I read it differently than I think you meant it, and my answer changes depending on how you read that phrase.

You make an excellent point, it was poorly worded. I meant to say the chance to meet the inspiration for your characters. I didn't make that distinction because the characters I write are the boys as I "know" them. I can't make them say or do things I can't see them doing, nor would I want to read fic that does - fic isn't about escapism or happiness for me, I read it because there's so many other stories and paths to tell and go down in their lives that they won't or can't or whatever, and the outstanding authors in this fandom do such ingenious things with them.

There is indeed lots of space, and that's why any incarnation of a particular person that's not them caught in a photograph or giving an interview can only be an interpretation. And you're right, the liberties authors take depend on that space almost as much as what they've got in the way of more objective source material, and my problem here was that the liberties Betty took to write her Carlos were beyond what my "know" of Carlos accomodates.

For the most part, what interests me about them as characters is on the other side of that space, and I know that as a member of the general public, I ain't ever gonna see on the other side of that space.

And see, I'm very concrete and work only with what I've got and what can be reasonably extrapolated. Which means an author can still make certain characterizations work if she properly extrapolates on the "know" already at hand about that person. Problem there being everyone's "know" being different because of a thousand things - different canon base, interpretations, etc. - and the one Betty presented, whether that Carlos was the sum of her "know" or merely who she wanted him to be for the story, clashed so strongly with my "know" that I can't enjoy the story as I like to enjoy stories, which is to say with an element of remote "real world" plausibility.

Continued...

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

But part of what I love so much about seeing the photos or hearing their interviews or watching their concerts is extrapolating what XY and Z done in the public eye means for what I can write/ponder about going on in the private sphere.

And this is why RPS is really not the fandom for me - I'm one of those utterly transparent people, who can't act to save her life and doesn't put on different "faces" for different people. What you see is what you get, which is rare if not nearly unheardof in celebrity culture. Whereas in, say, television shows, we usually have the advantage of being a somewhat omniscient observer in that we get to see the characters do everything exactly as they are and know when they're putting on airs/lying/etc. We know when they're not being themselves where there's no real way to unfailingly make that distinction with real people. And what I tend to do a lot of the time is take them at face value and attempt to "decode" or interpret very little. Of course I understand sarcasm and read into gestures, but on the whole, I usually just accept what's in front of me and try to use those elements to still tell the story I want to.

(Hence my mad adoration for valiumbitch.)

I, too, enjoy valiumbitch but on a wholly bizarre level - it's like a caricature. I love it because it makes me laugh instead of annoy me, as OOC tends to do, because that JC works as an exagerrated product of his plausible (as far as ny "know" is concerned) but much less life-controlling neuroses.

But don't you think a face-to-face encounter would give you a better sense of them as the person on other side of that space, rather than the public persona, than your interpretations of their actions as that latter persona? Or does the other side of that space only interest you as a space of creative possibility?

[uschickens.livejournal.com]

Ah, more heaps of interesting things to think about. See, because I absolutely agree with your statement I'm very concrete and work only with what I've got and what can be reasonably extrapolated. Which means an author can still make certain characterizations work if she properly extrapolates on the "know" already at hand about that person. I need an author to connect me from what we've seen (what we "know" as you so handily put it) to whatever their take on the character is, and I'll also agree at being thrown out if I can't get there from here. However, I can't help but pick at things, and my interpretation of most of what we "know" about nsync is that we're never seeing the full story, that even if what they say happened is exactly what happened, there's still backstory and personal details that we can't know and thus, in the rps world, must invent! In rps, what mostly interests me is those details that we don't know and must invent (because otherwise I'll just go curl up with the Making of Pop for the eighty millionth time and squeak happily), and I like the way different authorial interpretations of what we don't know can shade what we do know. If that makes any sense at all. But absolutely yes needing a connection from what we "know" to what an author is writing. Even if I don't necessarily believe what the author is writing has happened or ever could happen (and, yeah, I very much stick valiumbitch in this category), I need that connection to what we "know," however tenuous as long as it's there, to what's going on in the story. Otherwise, it loses the charm it has for me in being "about" nsync.

What I think I'm trying to say with my whole "public" and "private" space deal, though, is not totally related to that. In my warped little interpretation of it, what we see on, say, Making the Video or in interviews would be more private sphere than any fan encounter I could have. From my second and third hand hearings, the vast majority of fan encounters are way less personal and way more persona than even an interview, and that just kinda leaves me cold. I'd rather get the performance or interview personality, if only because that's what I expect going into it.

And, yeah, my own personal dislike of the fan-celebrity power balance thing is playing into my answer here big time. Even if I know I'm not going to degenerate into squealing hysterics at any moment, they don't know that, and I kinda see that as a barrier to anything other than, "Dude, your album rocked and kept me sane through first year law school." "Uh, thanks. Can I sign something for you?" I think because I spend (so much) time thinking about them as people off-stage, about what they do when they're not 'on' (or are, you know, getting groiny with each other) that in my headspace, that sort of exchange would never be a satisfying encounter. I think as a fan I don't have the right to demand the kind of personal response that would give me the slash fan more to work with than, say, seeing them from afar.

Now, if I happened to run into one of them at the hole in the wall bar down the street from me and started talking and had an epic darts game, that would be entirely different. No weird fan imbalance thing and the opportunity to chat about things that wouldn't come up in a normal fan encounter but hold far more interest for me both as a person just generally having a conversation and as a person who slashes them (although, I have to say, I still think that would be kinda weird). I think what I'm trying to say is that I would enjoy a chance to interact with them person to person, not fan to celebrity, and I just don't see that happening any time soon, so I'd rather just sit back and enjoy the concert/appearance/whatever, without running the risk of an Unsatisfying Celebrity Encounter and/or making an ass of myself. (Both very real possibilities, as I see it.)

[stargems.livejournal.com]

We can't escape the argument that There Is No Reality. Even when you make great comments about fictional characterization and real life observation, you still have to put "know" in quotations. Sure, your Carlos may not jive with Betty's in a particular scene, but who's to say which one is more credible. Hell, I would argue that people who have routine, consistent, non-fan encounters with any of the guys is not going to right a more 'real' story, simply because fanfic writers are human and they are brining their own baggage to the table.

That said, I do love the stories that feel real as well. The guys that are more consistent with my beliefs. We're lucky in popslash simply because we do have such diverser source material, no matter how limited, as you already mentioned.

To answer your question, no I wouldn't want to meet any of the guys (or girlfriends/entourage/family members) for that matter. I don't have any need for a personal exchange. But. Would I want an exclusive candid video? Maybe a chance to observe them all in a club or a backstage? You betcha. Mostly because I'm nosy and curious about the life behind the scenes, not because I'm worried about their behavior affecting my opinions. I already give them a lot of leeway and I'm already overly critical. It's a win-win situation.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Sure, your Carlos may not jive with Betty's in a particular scene, but who's to say which one is more credible.

Absolutely nobody. She's got hers and I've got mine, but that's enough to take me out of the primary reason I love the stories that I do (AUs notwithstanding), and that's because it sounds and feels like it can happen in the world as I know it. That doesn't mean I'm more or less right than Betty - it just means I'm a subjective human being with my own point of view.

So, you wouldn't want to meet them firsthand, but you'd like to watch them interact with other, just-as-foreign people? I don't think I get the distinction.

[stargems.livejournal.com]

Perhaps my original tone was judgemental? I didn't mean it to be.

Quite simply, the distinction is that I don't need to put myself in the equation. I get enough enjoyment from the concerts and the footage and tabloid gossip. Sure, an eye-witness candid view would be icing on the cake, but if I have to mix it up with the guys in order to get that insight, then I'd rather pass. Not that I think meeting them would be damaging or detrimental. I'm sure they are quite wonderful, in fact. It's just that my reasons for being in the fandom don't run that deep. I became a fan based on the fun, boyish, dorkish interactions and the hot, sexass public personas and the music and the crazymadness that was NSYNC. Seeing them on my TV screen or in pictures is enough. I don't have the time or the energy or the desire to go beyond.

Of course, if it was meant to be, then I'd gladly take the opportunity to sit and chat with the guys. It's just not something I even think about day to day. And it's certianly not something I seek out or invest in hoping for, you know?

And yes. That was my point. The fact that you have your POV and that Bettyp has hers. I've gotten a rather detailed synopsis of the story, and I'm inclined to agree with your take on the story. Carlos definitely does seem out of 'character.' I only replied because you had some pretty specific wording that I didn't necessarily relate to. I understand your point more clearly now.

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Perhaps my original tone was judgemental? I didn't mean it to be.

*eep* Did my reply come off snappish? You really weren't, and I didn't at all mean to be, and apologies if that's how it sounded.

Hm, and I see the whole idea behind meeting them as taking the middleman, as it's nigh impossible to remove oneself, out of the equation - what you'd see in those moments would be them as pure as you could get: no cameras, no agents, not reading someone else's words or interpretations but only what you yourself see and perceive. Which is exciting, but also holds every potential of being disappointing, because they are real and free willed and perhaps nothing like what we imagined, which is not a danger with original fiction.

I think Betty did a tremendous job of making me care for Carlos the way JC does very quickly, which worked great for the purposes of her story - it's just that my buying into his character also shifted the entire story a few degrees from "true North" for me, so it was no longer something that could conceivably happen (as far as my "know" is concerned) in the "real world" but something purely fictional. And it's precisely the possibility element (making, of course, the necessary gigantic leap that they'd even remotely consider boys in a sexual context) that I love so much about RPS.

[tallories.livejournal.com]

Hee, good to see these posts from you again, hon. *g* Although, I must admit, this is a little much for me to wrap my mind around at 1:55 a.m. ;) *bookmarks*

[gjstruthseeker.livejournal.com]

Oh, trust that this post was entirely a fluke for so many reasons - I had time to read fic, I had ready internet access to espouse on my thoughts, I had the clarity of mind and calmness of spirit (as, like with any junkie, withdrawal symptoms continue to persist when I'm so much as in the vicinity of technology). Though I appreciate that my long-winded pseudo-deep novellas are missed. ;)